Another Expansion/Realignment Thread

[MidwestBest]

what constitute as HS Gym? would we rather seem 7k seat full arenas or 14k half full arenas?

Personally I think its a better experience to have a full house, in an ideal world that means full 14k but many athletic departments are shrinking their BBall gyms and going to a more intimate experience with less seats. I think that could be an ideal model for our league as we maybe dont have volume but we do have some seriously passionate fanbases who can create special atmospheres if theyre not drowned out in large cavernous arenas.

[ReZyNeZy]

I was making a comparison to a similar conference. Right we are the 9th and 10th respectively, but I dont think there was a single team in the conference that was able to pull 10k last season. ISU sold out games yes, but with the renovations, they dropped to below 10k. Dayton is an outlier yes, but they prove the point that the markets of our teams are diluted. I dont know if you ignored this statement, but I clearly stated that the 2 conferences outside of the power schools that have proven to be able to fill their large arenas. When comparing diluted markets, I explicitly only used Power schools and did not mention a mid major clash unless it was our own schools, or schools that can put butts in seats. I admit Loyola is a pretty crappy answer as they play in a HS gym, but the point still stands. Market dilution is going to be a factor in attendance.

Dayton is just about an hour away from the nearest power school being Cincy. Granted they share their market with Wright State and Miami Ohio, but Dayton takes the basketball coin over those schools and they would, naturally, pull more fans. Dayton is a school "Worth watching". VU and UIC are sandwiched between markets. UIC takes the chicago market, and VU has to compete with Chicago, ND and Purdue for fan support. As for failing to see why people would go to ND games. You would be surprised.

My post isnt excuse making. It is a commentary on the current topic. That being markets, expansion, and schools up for consideration. I merely am claiming that asking a school to increase their financial commitment and to upgrade their barn should be undergone with some hesitancy. NKU is competing in the Cincinnati market. Questions to be considered is, how diluted is the market? Is this school a "worth watching" school? How does this move benefit the MVC? I only displayed how dilluted markets, and making demands can impact the MVC as a whole.

Not every game is going to be a sell out, but teams need to fill at least 50% capacity on a weekly basis. Some of our schools have proven they cannot do that consistently (IE: UIC and VU)

Should NKU be considered, absolutely, they share a market with Cincy, a school without a current basketball focus, and their amenities are on par with Evansville, Bradley, and Indiana St. But other than them we should proceed with caution and take into account some key questions, and the league certainly shouldn't e making demands while there is a massive elephant standing in the room.

Valpo's issues have nothing to do with a diluted market. They're in the wrong league and they (we all) know it.

I never claimed that their issues are caused by a diluted market. I just claimed that diluted markets can have an effect on attendance across the board. VU and UIC are in the largest market in the Valley, but both schools do not see attendance because of the diluted market. VU in particular has a multitude of issues as to why they don't see fans, but a lot of these concerns are being addressed by the new admin (Hopefully successfully). The new arena is actively being developed and will hopefully release renderings by next year. As for the ARC, there is no excuse for it. It has been a dated arena for years now, and local high schools seat more than it.

VU is in the wrong league? not really. Since joining they have not had great success, but if you think Valpo doesn't belong, you'd have to go tell Evansville the same thing considering they have performed on par or worse than VU on average since 2017 if you look at the standings (minus the most recent season). Now, if you were making a case based on overall university health, you'd have an argument that VU isn't sustainable which I accept, but basing things purely off of basketball success is not a good argument considering VU has either out performed or played on par with conference vets who have similar enrollment and COA metrics (According to US News).

[ReZyNeZy]

what constitute as HS Gym? would we rather seem 7k seat full arenas or 14k half full arenas?

Personally I think its a better experience to have a full house, in an ideal world that means full 14k but many athletic departments are shrinking their BBall gyms and going to a more intimate experience with less seats. I think that could be an ideal model for our league as we maybe dont have volume but we do have some seriously passionate fanbases who can create special atmospheres if theyre not drowned out in large cavernous arenas.

That really depends on who you ask. Evansville and Valpo folk are used to some pretty massive gyms. Valpo in particular considering the 8th, 10th and 3rd largest gyms in the world are within a 50 mile radius. These gyms seat up to 8k, and will see that many fans come sectionals and regionals for HS. In Indiana, if you don't seat at least 3-5k, you are considered small.( I'd recommend looking through the gyms of the Duneland Athletic Conference in Indiana if you want to get an Idea for what the avg Indiana gym looks like). If you were to ask someone from Iowa or Nebraska what a HS gym looks like, I'm sure there would be a very different answer. As for a dominant Mid Major, 5-7k has always been my happy medium in terms of size. Not so massive its redundant, but not to small that you cant host other events and rent the space out for concerts or other events to earn an extra bit of cash and usage.

[BCPanther]

I was making a comparison to a similar conference. Right we are the 9th and 10th respectively, but I dont think there was a single team in the conference that was able to pull 10k last season. ISU sold out games yes, but with the renovations, they dropped to below 10k. Dayton is an outlier yes, but they prove the point that the markets of our teams are diluted. I dont know if you ignored this statement, but I clearly stated that the 2 conferences outside of the power schools that have proven to be able to fill their large arenas. When comparing diluted markets, I explicitly only used Power schools and did not mention a mid major clash unless it was our own schools, or schools that can put butts in seats. I admit Loyola is a pretty crappy answer as they play in a HS gym, but the point still stands. Market dilution is going to be a factor in attendance.

Dayton is just about an hour away from the nearest power school being Cincy. Granted they share their market with Wright State and Miami Ohio, but Dayton takes the basketball coin over those schools and they would, naturally, pull more fans. Dayton is a school "Worth watching". VU and UIC are sandwiched between markets. UIC takes the chicago market, and VU has to compete with Chicago, ND and Purdue for fan support. As for failing to see why people would go to ND games. You would be surprised.

My post isnt excuse making. It is a commentary on the current topic. That being markets, expansion, and schools up for consideration. I merely am claiming that asking a school to increase their financial commitment and to upgrade their barn should be undergone with some hesitancy. NKU is competing in the Cincinnati market. Questions to be considered is, how diluted is the market? Is this school a "worth watching" school? How does this move benefit the MVC? I only displayed how dilluted markets, and making demands can impact the MVC as a whole.

Not every game is going to be a sell out, but teams need to fill at least 50% capacity on a weekly basis. Some of our schools have proven they cannot do that consistently (IE: UIC and VU)

Should NKU be considered, absolutely, they share a market with Cincy, a school without a current basketball focus, and their amenities are on par with Evansville, Bradley, and Indiana St. But other than them we should proceed with caution and take into account some key questions, and the league certainly shouldn't e making demands while there is a massive elephant standing in the room.

Valpo's issues have nothing to do with a diluted market. They're in the wrong league and they (we all) know it.

I never claimed that their issues are caused by a diluted market. I just claimed that diluted markets can have an effect on attendance across the board. VU and UIC are in the largest market in the Valley, but both schools do not see attendance because of the diluted market. VU in particular has a multitude of issues as to why they don't see fans, but a lot of these concerns are being addressed by the new admin (Hopefully successfully). The new arena is actively being developed and will hopefully release renderings by next year. As for the ARC, there is no excuse for it. It has been a dated arena for years now, and local high schools seat more than it.

VU is in the wrong league? not really. Since joining they have not had great success, but if you think Valpo doesn't belong, you'd have to go tell Evansville the same thing considering they have performed on par or worse than VU on average since 2017 if you look at the standings (minus the most recent season). Now, if you were making a case based on overall university health, you'd have an argument that VU isn't sustainable which I accept, but basing things purely off of basketball success is not a good argument considering VU has either out performed or played on par with conference vets who have similar enrollment and COA metrics (According to US News).

I'm perfectly willing to make the motion to get rid of both of them and go back to 10.

I'm pretty sure that the league standings and preseason poll graphics that the Valley puts out in all sports come with Valpo and Evansville auto-filled in the last two spots.

Show of hands...

[TylerDurden]

I never claimed that their issues are caused by a diluted market. I just claimed that diluted markets can have an effect on attendance across the board. VU and UIC are in the largest market in the Valley, but both schools do not see attendance because of the diluted market. VU in particular has a multitude of issues as to why they don't see fans, but a lot of these concerns are being addressed by the new admin (Hopefully successfully). The new arena is actively being developed and will hopefully release renderings by next year. As for the ARC, there is no excuse for it. It has been a dated arena for years now, and local high schools seat more than it.

VU is in the wrong league? not really. Since joining they have not had great success, but if you think Valpo doesn't belong, you'd have to go tell Evansville the same thing considering they have performed on par or worse than VU on average since 2017 if you look at the standings (minus the most recent season). Now, if you were making a case based on overall university health, you'd have an argument that VU isn't sustainable which I accept, but basing things purely off of basketball success is not a good argument considering VU has either out performed or played on par with conference vets who have similar enrollment and COA metrics (According to US News).

Valpo is absolutely in the wrong league and I've said the same thing about Evansville. The difference between the two is that Evansville has fans and a good facility to play in.

Any attempt to frame Valpo as having any sort of competitive success is silly. Your criteria filters out everyone but Evansville. You're arguing Valpo belongs because you've been 11th out of 12th for seven years.

Can we also stop this idea that Valpo is in the Chicago market? You can get Chicago news stations on your TV and you can drive 1.5 hrs into the city to shop on Michigan Ave., congratulations. That's the extent of it.

[MissouriValleyUnite]

All-sports standings don’t matter. It’s a very minute number of people who pay attention to those.

Evansville consistently puts out upper-half attendance despite 25 years of mostly bottom-half finishes. That’s exactly what you want out of a member: a stern, solid base of support that can withstand a lost generation of on-court success. College basketball is a zero-sum game — there’s always going to be teams at the bottom, so if those teams provide either solid fan support or a critical recruiting market, they’re providing value to the league.

[ReZyNeZy]

I never claimed that their issues are caused by a diluted market. I just claimed that diluted markets can have an effect on attendance across the board. VU and UIC are in the largest market in the Valley, but both schools do not see attendance because of the diluted market. VU in particular has a multitude of issues as to why they don't see fans, but a lot of these concerns are being addressed by the new admin (Hopefully successfully). The new arena is actively being developed and will hopefully release renderings by next year. As for the ARC, there is no excuse for it. It has been a dated arena for years now, and local high schools seat more than it.

VU is in the wrong league? not really. Since joining they have not had great success, but if you think Valpo doesn't belong, you'd have to go tell Evansville the same thing considering they have performed on par or worse than VU on average since 2017 if you look at the standings (minus the most recent season). Now, if you were making a case based on overall university health, you'd have an argument that VU isn't sustainable which I accept, but basing things purely off of basketball success is not a good argument considering VU has either out performed or played on par with conference vets who have similar enrollment and COA metrics (According to US News).

Valpo is absolutely in the wrong league and I've said the same thing about Evansville. The difference between the two is that Evansville has fans and a good facility to play in.

Any attempt to frame Valpo as having any sort of competitive success is silly. Your criteria filters out everyone but Evansville. You're arguing Valpo belongs because you've been 11th out of 12th for seven years.

Can we also stop this idea that Valpo is in the Chicago market? You can get Chicago news stations on your TV and you can drive 1.5 hrs into the city to shop on Michigan Ave., congratulations. That's the extent of it.

Then you are going to have to pick a fight with the people who make the market share lists. They list UIC and Valpo as being in the Chicago market. The area where the school sits is considered a part of Chicagoland. Therefore the Chicago market.

Valpo has had good attendance numbers. Their issues came about when the law school shut down and a string of bad press, coupled with poor performance, drove people away. Evansville is the criteria I chose because Evansville is a mirror of VU. VU is a small Lutheran school with around 2k enrollment, Evansville is a small Methodist school with around 2k enrollment. The only differnce between the schools is that Evansville was able to partner with their city to build a civic center (IE the Ford Center). Valpo is a notoriously frugal community. That money is not just going to fall out of the sky, but again, the issue is being resolved. Hopefully Valpo can return to the way they were in the early 2010s, but claiming they don't belong is just silly.

[BUFanatic]

I never claimed that their issues are caused by a diluted market. I just claimed that diluted markets can have an effect on attendance across the board. VU and UIC are in the largest market in the Valley, but both schools do not see attendance because of the diluted market. VU in particular has a multitude of issues as to why they don't see fans, but a lot of these concerns are being addressed by the new admin (Hopefully successfully). The new arena is actively being developed and will hopefully release renderings by next year. As for the ARC, there is no excuse for it. It has been a dated arena for years now, and local high schools seat more than it.

VU is in the wrong league? not really. Since joining they have not had great success, but if you think Valpo doesn't belong, you'd have to go tell Evansville the same thing considering they have performed on par or worse than VU on average since 2017 if you look at the standings (minus the most recent season). Now, if you were making a case based on overall university health, you'd have an argument that VU isn't sustainable which I accept, but basing things purely off of basketball success is not a good argument considering VU has either out performed or played on par with conference vets who have similar enrollment and COA metrics (According to US News).

Valpo is absolutely in the wrong league and I've said the same thing about Evansville. The difference between the two is that Evansville has fans and a good facility to play in.

Any attempt to frame Valpo as having any sort of competitive success is silly. Your criteria filters out everyone but Evansville. You're arguing Valpo belongs because you've been 11th out of 12th for seven years.

Can we also stop this idea that Valpo is in the Chicago market? You can get Chicago news stations on your TV and you can drive 1.5 hrs into the city to shop on Michigan Ave., congratulations. That's the extent of it.

Then you are going to have to pick a fight with the people who make the market share lists. They list UIC and Valpo as being in the Chicago market. The area where the school sits is considered a part of Chicagoland. Therefore the Chicago market.

Valpo has had good attendance numbers. Their issues came about when the law school shut down and a string of bad press, coupled with poor performance, drove people away. Evansville is the criteria I chose because Evansville is a mirror of VU. VU is a small Lutheran school with around 2k enrollment, Evansville is a small Methodist school with around 2k enrollment. The only differnce between the schools is that Evansville was able to partner with their city to build a civic center (IE the Ford Center). Valpo is a notoriously frugal community. That money is not just going to fall out of the sky, but again, the issue is being resolved. Hopefully Valpo can return to the way they were in the early 2010s, but claiming they don't belong is just silly.

You’re clearly not from IL then. I spent a year at VU and I never felt like I was living in Chicagoland (which probably would go as Far East as Gary if I were being generous.) I had to take a bus to the Dunes to the South Shore Line which (that Far East) was mainly a line to get people to and from South Bend on Saturdays.

Evansville… pop 118,414…. Metro pop 358,676. Valpo pop… 34,151 Metro pop… what is a metro? Evansville is way more similar to a slightly smaller Bradley/Peoria market. Add in USI’s 7k student pop (which I assume there’s a decent amount that go to Evansville events like Holy Cross/ND and ISU/IWU) and it’s not even close. I always describe Valpo as if you’d dropped Morton or Pekin halfway between Bloomington and Chicago on I-55 with nothing else around. Evansville and Bradley (as well as several other Valley schools) benefit from being “community’s team” in a mid market. Valpo doesn’t have that. Even if it does, the resources of the community are diminished due to the vast population differences.

Like Loyola, I think Valley membership helps UIC to rise to being a worthy Valley member. I have never, and continue to see year over year, believed that Valpo was a good fit. Horizon was, and always will be, their home.

EDIT: Up until a few years ago Peoria got both WGN TV and KMOX radio. We still get Chicago and STL sports broadcasts on local stations. Are we part of an MSA of over 12 million people? That would put us second in the MSA list ahead of LA and behind only NYC. If true that’s pretty cool.

[TylerDurden]

Then you are going to have to pick a fight with the people who make the market share lists. They list UIC and Valpo as being in the Chicago market. The area where the school sits is considered a part of Chicagoland. Therefore the Chicago market.

Valpo has had good attendance numbers. Their issues came about when the law school shut down and a string of bad press, coupled with poor performance, drove people away. Evansville is the criteria I chose because Evansville is a mirror of VU. VU is a small Lutheran school with around 2k enrollment, Evansville is a small Methodist school with around 2k enrollment. The only differnce between the schools is that Evansville was able to partner with their city to build a civic center (IE the Ford Center). Valpo is a notoriously frugal community. That money is not just going to fall out of the sky, but again, the issue is being resolved. Hopefully Valpo can return to the way they were in the early 2010s, but claiming they don't belong is just silly.

The one point you've made that I totally agree with is the hope that Valpo can return to what they were in the early 2010s: a Horizon League team.

[MidwestBest]

Valpo does have that nice Don Quixote Spanish restaurant with all the bill boards along I80 so what they lack in total population, basketball investment and on-court success they make up for in seemingly excellent Spanish restaurants named after literary characters. (ive never eaten there, i just drive through Valpo on my way to other places).