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BEARZ77 wrote:I'd bet a beer or two in St. Louis 4 years from now, that the names Thurman and Marshall will have caused much more opponent angst than Baker and Van Fleet.

I'm not going to lie. This post sure tears apart a lot of credibility one might have had.

Championz wrote:

BEARZ77 wrote:I'd bet a beer or two in St. Louis 4 years from now, that the names Thurman and Marshall will have caused much more opponent angst than Baker and Van Fleet.

I'm not going to lie. This post sure tears apart a lot of credibility one might have had.

I'm not gonna lie, you never had cred to begin with. Are you serious; this post was made when all 4 were freshman and at the time Marshall was starting and on his way to FOY. All 4 were highly thought of and projected to have solid careers. If you're gonna sit there and tell me when your top guys are freshmen, you don't believe that they're going to develop and have great careers then like I said, you're the one whose cred I question. When you have the ballz to predict something 4 years in advance that has as much variance as 4 college kids careers, then have the ballz to admit when it goes the other way, then perhaps I'll see you different. Right now you're just trying to look smart long after the fact.

BEARZ77 wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, you never had cred to begin with. Are you serious; this post was made when all 4 were freshman and at the time Marshall was starting and on his way to FOY. All 4 were highly thought of and projected to have solid careers. If you're gonna sit there and tell me when your top guys are freshmen, you don't believe that they're going to develop and have great careers then like I said, you're the one whose cred I question. When you have the ballz to predict something 4 years in advance that has as much variance as 4 college kids careers, then have the ballz to admit when it goes the other way, then perhaps I'll see you different. Right now you're just trying to look smart long after the fact.

When I make predictions, I make damn sure I have a better chance at being right than being wrong. And when I'm wrong, I'm certainly going to own up to it.

Stop deflecting and take your deserved lumps like a man. No one forced you to predict anything and especially not in the matter-of-fact way you did so.

BEARZ77 wrote:this post was made when all 4 were freshman and at the time Marshall was starting and on his way to FOY. All 4 were highly thought of and projected to have solid careers.

Actually, at the time the original prediction was made, VanVleet was the highest regarded recruit in the Valley (top 150 3/4* recruit), but it was well known that he would come off the bench as a freshman. Gavin Thurman and Marcus Marshall were 2/3* guys and it was thought by most MSU fans that both would start. Baker was a Red-Shirt walk-on that was supposed to back up Demetric Williams, but was heralded by the WSU fans as a great shooter.

I think VanVleet, Marshall, and Thurman were projected to have solid careers.

Not to overstate the obvious but:

1)Fred VanVleet and Ron Baker are exceptional talents. Baker was way under-recruited because of his location and because he wasn't on the AAU circuit. They are as good at what they do as anyone at their positions in this conference for the last 30 years.

2)It's kind of silly to compare stats of a kid on a team hoping to compete for a top half Valley spot to a player on a team competing for a National Championship. The best player on WSU's team is better, substantially better, than the best player on Loyola's team, for instance. That's not to say that WSU is going to win every game or go undefeated in the Valley again, but winning matters and WSU is doing a lot of that of late.

3)Today and now, Coach Marshall is better at getting the most out of his players than any other coach in the league, and frankly most coaches in the country. Does anyone think GT wouldn't have progressed more under 3G? Granted, he might not have lasted through a season at WSU, but if he put forth the effort, he'd be ahead of where he is now, I have no doubt.

Championz wrote:

BEARZ77 wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, you never had cred to begin with. Are you serious; this post was made when all 4 were freshman and at the time Marshall was starting and on his way to FOY. All 4 were highly thought of and projected to have solid careers. If you're gonna sit there and tell me when your top guys are freshmen, you don't believe that they're going to develop and have great careers then like I said, you're the one whose cred I question. When you have the ballz to predict something 4 years in advance that has as much variance as 4 college kids careers, then have the ballz to admit when it goes the other way, then perhaps I'll see you different. Right now you're just trying to look smart long after the fact.

When I make predictions, I make damn sure I have a better chance at being right than being wrong. And when I'm wrong, I'm certainly going to own up to it.

Stop deflecting and take your deserved lumps like a man. No one forced you to predict anything and especially not in the matter-of-fact way you did so.

You obviously have a reading deficiency, I suggest you go back and look at what I posted above and tell me where I didn't own up to being wrong. But I will say, anybody so much wanting to rub it in that they jump two years in advance on their "gotchas" best hope that things don't change.

BEARZ77 wrote:But I will say, anybody so much wanting to rub it in that they jump two years in advance on their "gotchas" best hope that things don't change.

I'm not on the rubbing it in train. But I am pretty confident that there is very little any pair in the Valley can do over the next 2 years to match the accomplishments of Baker and VanVleet even to this point in their careers, much less the addition of anything they do over the next 1-2 years.

BEARZ77 wrote:You obviously have a reading deficiency, I suggest you go back and look at what I posted above and tell me where I didn't own up to being wrong. But I will say, anybody so much wanting to rub it in that they jump two years in advance on their "gotchas" best hope that things don't change.

I guess you did so in so few words but you're getting mad and defensive about it.

So are you making another prediction that, at the very least, Marshall and Thurman are going to become all-Americans and lead their team to a Final Four and undefeated regular season? I would think the first order of business would be to finish in the top half of the Valley.

I think it's time to take a step back and realize what you posted and why people are reacting the way they are to it.

I pretty much called Bearz out when I mentioned re-reading the first page of this thread. Then Bearz owned it. No reason to stack crap on him.

When Marshall and Thurman were Fr, it appeared they would be outstanding players by Valley standards. It's not on Bearz that Thurman failed to develop a work ethic and Marshall has been injured his entire career.

You had to be in Wichita and following things pretty closely to realize that Baker and VanVleet were going to be elite. Those outside of Wichita were considering their recruits in terms of what's usually seen in the Valley - and the Valley has one fine crop of perimeter players right now.

I want to see DoubleJayAlum come on here and own his comparison of Yates to VnVleet and Baker.

You can lay off Bearz. He's buying beers in StL.

I'm only linking selected articles here instead of everything. Everything would get ridiculous.

This one is a bit special. Gary Parrish picks VanVleet on his 1st team pre-season AA, and lists Baker as one of a couple guys he could have put there at SG.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24642990/good-luck-trying-to-pick-preseason-all-americans-for-this-season