Tennessee vs. WSU at Intrust Bank Arena 1pm 12/14 ESPN2

[bleach]

I, for one, have no issues with criticism, though I think some WSU posters do. Some good points of discussion which have been pointed out are as follows:

1) WSU is not deep. We have 12 eligible scholarship players as Bowles has been declared medically unfit. Two Shockers elected to Red Shirt. Derail Green, the Red Shirt freshman, has not yet adapted to D-1 ball. That leaves 9 players that get meaningful minutes. Wessel and Wiggins have disappeared early in the season, and Coleby/Carter/Lufile have been hit or miss all season. Marshall has been going with the hot hand. Baker is the starting SG and back-up PG. Cotton is the other starting wing and third string PG. We aren't deep.

2) Wessel is struggling. Evan can not shoot the ball right now. That has significantly limited his ability to contribute on a game-by-game basis. He needs to get it going soon.

3) Early isn't playing well. Early is not living up to the hype of being a pre-season All-American and pre-season MVC POY. His outside shot isn't falling and his shot selection is inconsistent at best. He can get to the rim, but can't finish with contact. Despite all of that, he's still averaging 14 and 6…which is basically exactly the same as what he did last year when he was first team All-Conference.

And I was surprised to the extent these things were evident.

[rlh04d]

Inaccuracies abound.
1)Never said I had a problem with the national rank.
2)Never said I had a problem with the thread on Baker and Van Vleet.
3)Never said the starting four were "Great".
4) Never said the thread naming Early POY was a problem.

I said my expectations were formed from those threads.
Since WSU is clearly better than the rest of the league, there only seems to be a total of ONE threat to them being unbeaten.
I think (based on the only game i've seen this year) this years team is down from last years because they appeared to lack depth overall and strength in the post compared to last year. If you dissagree, you can explain why.

I've only watched one MoSt game as well. That's why I'm not making concrete observations of the quality of the team based on my lack of information.

[bleach]

Suit yourself.
The Bears don't exactly have 4 key elements returning from a final 4 team as known quantaties.

[Snaggletooth]

The 2013-14 Shocker team is deeper than most (or all) Valley teams, but not as deep as any of the last three Shocker teams and not as deep as many other top 25 teams.

Point is, as we talk about WSU on a national stage and we see threads talking about WSU in the top 10 and going undefeated, I think that the argument can be made against high rankings and tons of wins (relatively speaking) based on a lack of a deep bench ready to perform at the same level as the starters on a game by game basis.

I looked at 20 of 25 of the Top 25 teams, the average # of players they played any significant minutes was 8 in games this week.

#1 Arizona starters averaged 32.5 minutes, playing 7
#5 MSU starters average 33.4 minutes in their last game

The breakdown was

7 players deep - 7 teams
8 players deep - 6 teams
9 players deep - 7 teams

So you are wrong.

[rlh04d]

Suit yourself.
The Bears don't exactly have 4 key elements returning from a final 4 team as known quantaties.

Not sure what that has to do with you making concrete opinions on the unknown quantities after one game. Jumping to uninformed conclusions is what it is.

[2livewu]

Suit yourself.
The Bears don't exactly have 4 key elements returning from a final 4 team as known quantaties.

Of the 4 known "quantities":

Fred VanVleet is markedly improved in all aspects of the game. He's shooting 50% from 3, 84% from the line, has more steals (20) than turnovers (16), averages 11+ a game and has more than a 3-1 A/TO ratio. He's fantastic.

Ron Baker is making a play for POY. Shooting over 50%, 86% from the line, almost 3-1 A/TO ratio, again more steals (17) than turnovers (12) and leads the team in blocks. He's the leading scorer and can score from almost anywhere on the court. He's a FAR better player than he was at the Final Four last year.

Tekele Cotton is again much improved. 3rd in scoring, shooting nearly 50% from the field and 74% from the line. He always gets the other team's best player too. Yet again, more steals (11) than turnovers (9). He's a stud.

Early is getting some grief, but he's 5 points from leading a top 15 team in both scoring and rebounding. The only knock (that's fair) on Cle so far is that he's taking to many bad shots. He seems to be pressing a little...but he's still really good.

I don't know what your expectations are for WSU, but they seem to be a shade off kilter.

[shocker3]

I think it is an accurate statement to say that WSU is not as deep right now as they were last year or even 2 years ago. But I do think the players who are playing are actually better than last years team. I also hope that the depth will improve as the season continues.

Last year a couple of players were forced to play more time because of injuries, I think that greatly helped develop the Shockers depth last year. I hope that we are not forced into that position this year.

[Wufan]

The 2013-14 Shocker team is deeper than most (or all) Valley teams, but not as deep as any of the last three Shocker teams and not as deep as many other top 25 teams.

Point is, as we talk about WSU on a national stage and we see threads talking about WSU in the top 10 and going undefeated, I think that the argument can be made against high rankings and tons of wins (relatively speaking) based on a lack of a deep bench ready to perform at the same level as the starters on a game by game basis.

I looked at 20 of 25 of the Top 25 teams, the average # of players they played any significant minutes was 8 in games this week.

#1 Arizona starters averaged 32.5 minutes, playing 7
#5 MSU starters average 33.4 minutes in their last game

The breakdown was

7 players deep - 7 teams
8 players deep - 6 teams
9 players deep - 7 teams

So you are wrong.

I'm still not talking about minutes. Got it?

If you have points/rebounds/assists off the bench and they show I'm wrong then I will admit it. I'm talking about quality production off the bench. I think we are weak in that area right now.

[glm38]

I don't think bleach really said anything that was very derogatory regarding WSU? In fact he was pretty complimentary. He said he thought the 1st 4 (basically the start in 5) are very good. Just stated his opinion that they don't seem quite as deep as last year. At this point I agree with that.

At this point offensively the Shox just don't have as many players they can count on as they did at the end of last year when Baker came back from his injury. At this point their bigs while improving are not the equal of last year ( Hall). And offensively Wiggins and Wessel are struggling. That all could change by the end of the year. If those 2 find their stroke and your bigs continue their improvement then they really might run the table. I think that's not any different than what bleach was saying and is not derogatory towards a very good WSU team at all.

I seem to remember some WSU fans stating before the season that the Bears will be in the play in game again, our young players aren't as good as we think, etc. At this point that appears to be false. But it's an internet forum. Differing opinions are what it's all about.

[2livewu]

Again, if you want to argue that the 9th or 10th player this year is weaker than the 9th or 10th player on last year's team, I and most WSU fans I think, would agree.

I also think the least important component of your is the strength of your 9th or 10th man....unless of course you get hurt.

That being said, what if Shabazz Napier goes down? If you don't think UCONN disappears from the rankings almost immediately, you're kidding yourself.