Contract extension for Marty Simmons

[havoc]

What has happened gets discussed. That's how these boards work. We either work with speculation about what will happen or discuss what did happen. And what happened here was laughable to many outside of Evansville, and apparently some within Evansville.

Accept no one on this board really knows what happened. Obviously Marty was going to be the coach this season extension or not as that ship has already passed. Beyond that no one really knows about the terms of the extension were not, and will not be released.

[mule]

What has happened gets discussed. That's how these boards work. We either work with speculation about what will happen or discuss what did happen. And what happened here was laughable to many outside of Evansville, and apparently some within Evansville.

Accept no one on this board really knows what happened. Obviously Marty was going to be the coach this season extension or not as that ship has already passed. Beyond that no one really knows about the terms of the extension were not, and will not be released.

That's correct. And everything is not always black and white nor black and gold.

[Cdizzle]

the horse is dead lets quit beating it and move on. What has happened, has happened. Does matter anymore.

So long as a program is still in the league that thinks the approach and results Simmons has had at Evansville is worth rewarding, it still matters; and more people need to beat the horse until something is done about moving the stinking rotting flesh out of the stable.

[Ricardo del Rio]

Why to which comment, relevant or spotlight? Or, after stating that we should all move on,you just couldn't without comment.

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are complaining about.

[Tom Servo]

After staying out of this thread I'm torn........ Evansville has struggled since joining The Valley, there is no debating that. The non-conference schedule left a lot to be desired last season in terms of scheduling to get a potential at-large. It all depended on winning game one vs Providence in Anaheim, then getting another Power 5 in Arizona (who barely got by Santa Clara) and then either Boise State or Michigan State. Losing that first game meant Santa Clara and the UC-Irvine, not resume building wins or SOS positive games like winning game one. With what I would consider the best team Marty has had at Evansville. He's been here nine seasons without an NCAA and NIT.

With all that said, as well as not knowing the terms of the contract I'll lay out why I feel the way I do.

In my opinion, Evansville needs to be able to prove that they aan reload and be a top half team after losing so much instead of a complete rebuild. He inherited a mess early on and after the Colt Ryan era it was a Thursday night season, then 5th, then last year finishing 2nd. In a lot of ways this upcoming season is very similar with a lot of unknowns. Can he take this group and get them into an upper half finish, avoiding Thursday. There are a lot more question marks this rebuild/reboot due to so many newcomers, DJ was a freshman when the Colt Ryan group were seniors.

The other point, prefaced by not knowing the length of the deal has to do with his ability to recruit, not being a lame duck. How much that matters in recruiting can be debated but to have that security to say I just got extended I can only think helps, not hurts.

Looking at what I would consider the flagship programs right now in this league, WSU hired a guy in Marshall that won at Winthrop and has built WSU into a true program. UNI hired Jacobson and has maintained a steady level of success, NCAA wins during their appearances, etc. A proven head coach and a promoted assistant. The challenge is finding the right guy, not having tunnel vision for the guy who got the big NCAA Tournament upset, etc. I think Evansville is one of the more challenging jobs in the league, but that doesn't mean that it's an impossible job either. The era of college basketball has changed a lot since then but Evansville rebuilt a program from the worst day in the city's history, December 13th, 1977, and made the NCAA Tournament in 1982. It can and has been done, albeit in a completely different era.

To me in many ways the next two seasons will tell so much. How can UE rebuild/reload/recover from losing so much this season and depending on how they finish in 16-17, is it a blip because I imagine Evansville has to fall back this season to some degree, just how large, and then what does 17-18 have in store. If it's a two year down cycle then it looks bleak and I believe a change should be in order.

There are valid points about the competition that UE has racked up wins against over the last couple seasons when you look at the records they've achieved. I think it's time, as much as I like Marty and what he's done as a player, how he views the community, the way the kids who play here embrace the community, etc I do believe that Evansville has to become a team that can compete with the best of the league on a more consistent basis, because I feel if they can do that it gives them the type of team that can be a legitimate threat to make the postseason on their own merit, NCAA or NIT.

Excellent post, I haven't posted anything on either our forum or this one about the Marty extension, but this post is the closest to how I feel about the situation.

The problem with Simmons, from day one, has been recruiting. Mainly, recruiting guys who can fit his style of play. It takes a very specific player to play the 4 spot in his offense, and he still hasn't had a guy to fill that in the last 10 years. He does have two recruits now who should be able to fill that role -Solomon Hianna (starts playing this season) and Evan Kuhlman (starts playing next season). Also, he has a tendency to pick up a lot of guys who are what I would call "fill-in" players. They are on the team, but they can't really contribute because they have major issues either offensively or defensively. Last year, we really only had 6 guys who could contribute (maybe Wiley if he had been given enough minutes early in the year) but that was all he had. Which goes back to the recruiting problem.

If we drop off significantly this year and next year, he has to go. There is no more waiting.
If he finishes out of the play in game this year and builds up the 2017 class up a little more, we'll be in pretty good shape and the extension will be a good thing.

A lot is riding on these next two season.

[Cdizzle]

Excellent post, I haven't posted anything on either our forum or this one about the Marty extension, but this post is the closest to how I feel about the situation.

The problem with Simmons, from day one, has been recruiting. Mainly, recruiting guys who can fit his style of play. It takes a very specific player to play the 4 spot in his offense, and he still hasn't had a guy to fill that in the last 10 years. He does have two recruits now who should be able to fill that role -Solomon Hianna (starts playing this season) and Evan Kuhlman (starts playing next season). Also, he has a tendency to pick up a lot of guys who are what I would call "fill-in" players. They are on the team, but they can't really contribute because they have major issues either offensively or defensively. Last year, we really only had 6 guys who could contribute (maybe Wiley if he had been given enough minutes early in the year) but that was all he had. Which goes back to the recruiting problem.

If we drop off significantly this year and next year, he has to go. There is no more waiting.
If he finishes out of the play in game this year and builds up the 2017 class up a little more, we'll be in pretty good shape and the extension will be a good thing.

A lot is riding on these next two season.

Tom, I usually like your takes both here and on the UE board. To you, what is "in pretty good shape."

[Tom Servo]

Excellent post, I haven't posted anything on either our forum or this one about the Marty extension, but this post is the closest to how I feel about the situation.

The problem with Simmons, from day one, has been recruiting. Mainly, recruiting guys who can fit his style of play. It takes a very specific player to play the 4 spot in his offense, and he still hasn't had a guy to fill that in the last 10 years. He does have two recruits now who should be able to fill that role -Solomon Hianna (starts playing this season) and Evan Kuhlman (starts playing next season). Also, he has a tendency to pick up a lot of guys who are what I would call "fill-in" players. They are on the team, but they can't really contribute because they have major issues either offensively or defensively. Last year, we really only had 6 guys who could contribute (maybe Wiley if he had been given enough minutes early in the year) but that was all he had. Which goes back to the recruiting problem.

If we drop off significantly this year and next year, he has to go. There is no more waiting.
If he finishes out of the play in game this year and builds up the 2017 class up a little more, we'll be in pretty good shape and the extension will be a good thing.

A lot is riding on these next two season.

Tom, I usually like your takes both here and on the UE board. To you, what is "in pretty good shape."

Appreciate that!

I would say we have to be good enough to be consistently in the top 3 in the conference. To give a specific answer and not sound like a politician I would say this:

MVC title every 4-5 years
top 3 finish 2-3 of the 5 years
only one season below or at .500 in every 5 years cycle.

For now, I think that is a pretty reasonable expectation for us. It's a step in the right direction and would be pretty similar to what we used to do consistently.

Last year was our first (real - not 5 team tie) top 3 finish in 17 years. Now, my expecations would be 2 more top 3 finishes (one being a conference title) in the next 5 years. If Marty cannot do that, I would say that we need to look for someone else. I just hope Marty can do it, because we have all seen what happened with Merfeld.

To put it more briefly, we cannot look at CIT/CBI's as a goal. Those are what you go to in a down season, the NIT and NCAA need to be the goal now.

[Cdizzle]

Excellent post, I haven't posted anything on either our forum or this one about the Marty extension, but this post is the closest to how I feel about the situation.

The problem with Simmons, from day one, has been recruiting. Mainly, recruiting guys who can fit his style of play. It takes a very specific player to play the 4 spot in his offense, and he still hasn't had a guy to fill that in the last 10 years. He does have two recruits now who should be able to fill that role -Solomon Hianna (starts playing this season) and Evan Kuhlman (starts playing next season). Also, he has a tendency to pick up a lot of guys who are what I would call "fill-in" players. They are on the team, but they can't really contribute because they have major issues either offensively or defensively. Last year, we really only had 6 guys who could contribute (maybe Wiley if he had been given enough minutes early in the year) but that was all he had. Which goes back to the recruiting problem.

If we drop off significantly this year and next year, he has to go. There is no more waiting.
If he finishes out of the play in game this year and builds up the 2017 class up a little more, we'll be in pretty good shape and the extension will be a good thing.

A lot is riding on these next two season.

Tom, I usually like your takes both here and on the UE board. To you, what is "in pretty good shape."

Appreciate that!

I would say we have to be good enough to be consistently in the top 3 in the conference. To give a specific answer and not sound like a politician I would say this:

MVC title every 4-5 years
top 3 finish 2-3 of the 5 years
only one season below or at .500 in every 5 years cycle.

For now, I think that is a pretty reasonable expectation for us. It's a step in the right direction and would be pretty similar to what we used to do consistently.

Last year was our first (real - not 5 team tie) top 3 finish in 17 years. Now, my expecations would be 2 more top 3 finishes (one being a conference title) in the next 5 years. If Marty cannot do that, I would say that we need to look for someone else. I just hope Marty can do it, because we have all seen what happened with Merfeld.

To put it more briefly, we cannot look at CIT/CBI's as a goal. Those are what you go to in a down season, the NIT and NCAA need to be the goal now.

The league goals seem like very good goals to me. And I agree about NIT and NCAA needing to be the goal now. But those two are not necessarily aligned. For instance, last year Evansville tied for 2nd in the league (which is great), but had zero shot at an at-large NCAA bid, and were even hamstrung wrt NIT bid. I'm curious what gives you hope that after 10 years, something will be different in the recruiting or scheduling philosophies that will enable the achievement of the goals you listed. I get being gun-shy because 10th place seasons suck. But so does being assured mediocrity is the peak.

Recruiting and keeping a 4-man that wants to do nothing but set screens and rebound is proving difficult, which is not shocking. That's not likely to change.

[Tom Servo]

league goals seem like very good goals to me. And I agree about NIT and NCAA needing to be the goal now. But those two are not necessarily aligned. For instance, last year Evansville tied for 2nd in the league (which is great), but had zero shot at an at-large NCAA bid, and were even hamstrung wrt NIT bid. I'm curious what gives you hope that after 10 years, something will be different in the recruiting or scheduling philosophies that will enable the achievement of the goals you listed. I get being gun-shy because 10th place seasons suck. But so does being assured mediocrity is the peak.

Recruiting and keeping a 4-man that wants to do nothing but set screens and rebound is proving difficult, which is not shocking. That's not likely to change.

Good points for sure.

You are absolutely right about the schedule last year, and that is something that has to be changed. That definitely hurt us last year and I hope that the leason was learned from it. I would think any reasonable coach and AD would understand they can never do that again. The sad thing is this year's schedule is better than last years.

His recruiting has been a little bit better as of late, that is sort of why I am hopeful. Mainly because of the 4 men that he has signed, Dru Smith, Ryan Taylor, and Silas Adheke. There are couple of other good looking prospects he has offered for 2017 that would be a great fit for the motion offense.

The 4 man thing is a problem, it's been discussed ad nausem on the Aces board for years. I just hope the two guys I listed above will be able to fill that role this year. Once recruits see a guy actually putting up stats at that spot they would be more likely to come here in the future.

I guess one thing I would add, is that I would be willing to bet the extension is only for 1 or 2 more years and it will depend on how he does in these next two seasons. If he bombs this year, they might be able to buy him out and move on for a cheap price. At least that is what I hope. Because he has to prove that he can get past the mediocre stage. A lot of people in Evansville are sick of the "little ole' Evansville" excuses and want to start seeing some results. In my eyes he has two years to prove he can be better than mediocre. If he can't do it in these next two years, that's it.

[purple&orange]

league goals seem like very good goals to me. And I agree about NIT and NCAA needing to be the goal now. But those two are not necessarily aligned. For instance, last year Evansville tied for 2nd in the league (which is great), but had zero shot at an at-large NCAA bid, and were even hamstrung wrt NIT bid. I'm curious what gives you hope that after 10 years, something will be different in the recruiting or scheduling philosophies that will enable the achievement of the goals you listed. I get being gun-shy because 10th place seasons suck. But so does being assured mediocrity is the peak.

Recruiting and keeping a 4-man that wants to do nothing but set screens and rebound is proving difficult, which is not shocking. That's not likely to change.

Good points for sure.

You are absolutely right about the schedule last year, and that is something that has to be changed. That definitely hurt us last year and I hope that the leason was learned from it. I would think any reasonable coach and AD would understand they can never do that again. The sad thing is this year's schedule is better than last years.

His recruiting has been a little bit better as of late, that is sort of why I am hopeful. Mainly because of the 4 men that he has signed, Dru Smith, Ryan Taylor, and Silas Adheke. There are couple of other good looking prospects he has offered for 2017 that would be a great fit for the motion offense.

The 4 man thing is a problem, it's been discussed ad nausem on the Aces board for years. I just hope the two guys I listed above will be able to fill that role this year. Once recruits see a guy actually putting up stats at that spot they would be more likely to come here in the future.

I guess one thing I would add, is that I would be willing to bet the extension is only for 1 or 2 more years and it will depend on how he does in these next two seasons. If he bombs this year, they might be able to buy him out and move on for a cheap price. At least that is what I hope. Because he has to prove that he can get past the mediocre stage. A lot of people in Evansville are sick of the "little ole' Evansville" excuses and want to start seeing some results. In my eyes he has two years to prove he can be better than mediocre. If he can't do it in these next two years, that's it.

I think we are on the same page here Tom. I would love to be wrong about this but I think it's a matter of how large of a step back, not if the Aces will take this season. Not that this season should be discounted or devalued in the grand scheme of things but to move forward the team can't just have the bottom fall out and finish at or near the very bottom. Every program may have a down year, but a true program can't have wild swings of finishing 2nd, then 2nd to last for example. Even bigger than the final record is how competitive can they be? Going out and not being competitive on the road in past seasons has been a real struggle for us. How they play, can they compete says a lot about the direction of the program as well.

The scheduling, rightfully so, has been debated. I keep going back to how Evansville has played against some Power 5 teams, etc in the past. Look at the game at Arkansas this past season. It was a pretty ugly loss. I wonder if that has always been in the back of the minds putting the schedule together. I recall friends talking about how they were the "Same ole Aces" after Arkansas put it on them in December.

Time will tell about this extension. When record wise this was the best season in quite some time and you look at the W-L records the last three seasons, it's a span that hasn't been equaled since I would guess the early 90s. It's been far too long and after nine seasons I agree that the NCAA/NIT has to be the end game, along with being a player for conference titles, upper half team, etc.....basically what I would say would be a page from the Northern Iowa playbook. I look at UNI as a team that is always competitive, a tough game every time out, and a threat at Arch Madness.

Now somebody has to finish last each season but the roller coaster nature of the wild swings during what I guess I'd call a rebuild aren't indicative of a program. I can't imagine a scenario where Coach Simmons would leave the program in anything but better shape than what he found it, but if you ask me, the state of the program on March 1st, 2018 will determine who is leading the Aces in the 2018-19 season.