Contract extension for Marty Simmons

[Cdizzle]

In my work e-mail this morning was an interesting photo that seems to fit this discussion

image1.png

I hope Marty isn't trying to make that jump.

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

[mule]

Thanks for the hyperbole. The facts are not hyperbole, though they seem so in the other direction. Over the past 5 years, UE's NonCon SOS has averaged 271, with a high of 233 5 years ago. With what everyone knew would be competitive and in 2016 perhaps even at-large candidate teams, those numbers were 312 and 313 in 2015 and 2016, respectively. That's in the bottom 11% of all non-conference schedules in D1 college basketball last year. When you are in the bottom 15%, you are trying to be there. It didn't accidentally happen and everyone you thought was going to be great just happened to suck that year.

I'm interested in facts too. Care to share where these NonCon SOS comes from?

[Cdizzle]

Thanks for the hyperbole. The facts are not hyperbole, though they seem so in the other direction. Over the past 5 years, UE's NonCon SOS has averaged 271, with a high of 233 5 years ago. With what everyone knew would be competitive and in 2016 perhaps even at-large candidate teams, those numbers were 312 and 313 in 2015 and 2016, respectively. That's in the bottom 11% of all non-conference schedules in D1 college basketball last year. When you are in the bottom 15%, you are trying to be there. It didn't accidentally happen and everyone you thought was going to be great just happened to suck that year.

I'm interested in facts too. Care to share where these NonCon SOS comes from?

Sure thing.

http://kenpom.com/

[mule]

Thanks. I checked out the KenPom site. Very good and reputable information. I saw where UE was ranked 313 for their non-com SOS. They were ranked ahead of the following big name programs that had 20 or more wins: Louisville (315), St. Mary's (325), Pittsburgh (332), Virginia Tech (336), Hawaii (342), and Houston (350 out 351). All the above schools made the NCAA or NIT field except for Lousiville (not eligible). UE was also ahead of another 6 teams (including SIU) with 20 or more wins that did not make either of these tournaments.
Intrigued, I discovered that Warren Nolan, CBS, and yes, the NCAA also rank team non-con SOS. The NCAA calls it the Nitty-Gritty Report, which all these other sites try to emulate.

I compared UE to St. Mary's seeing both of these teams would have made the NCAA tournament had they won their conference tournament. Here are the non-con SOS comparisons for these 3 sites.
WN-242/98
CBS-223/166
NCAA-229/95

Quite a disparity from the KenPom numbers of 313/325. I would tend to think that the NCAA used their own numbers to evaluate teams for the tournament.
Anyway, no hyperbole here. Just the facts.

[Cdizzle]

Thanks. I checked out the KenPom site. Very good and reputable information. I saw where UE was ranked 313 for their non-com SOS. They were ranked ahead of the following big name programs that had 20 or more wins: Louisville (315), St. Mary's (325), Pittsburgh (332), Virginia Tech (336), Hawaii (342), and Houston (350 out 351). All the above schools made the NCAA or NIT field except for Lousiville (not eligible). UE was also ahead of another 6 teams (including SIU) with 20 or more wins that did not make either of these tournaments.
Intrigued, I discovered that Warren Nolan, CBS, and yes, the NCAA also rank team non-con SOS. The NCAA calls it the Nitty-Gritty Report, which all these other sites try to emulate.

I compared UE to St. Mary's seeing both of these teams would have made the NCAA tournament had they won their conference tournament. Here are the non-con SOS comparisons for these 3 sites.
WN-242/98
CBS-223/166
NCAA-229/95

Quite a disparity from the KenPom numbers of 313/325. I would tend to think that the NCAA used their own numbers to evaluate teams for the tournament.
Anyway, no hyperbole here. Just the facts.

There are definitely a lot of sources out there. I tend to use KenPom for as many things as I can because it *usually* includes a lot more data and advanced metrics. The NCAA has repeatedly stated over the past few years that selection committee members can use whatever data they want. The Nitty-Gritty sheets are useful, but most conversation in January/February among the national media and selection committee use KenPom (or kenPom lite, BPI) for metrics other than RPI.

This list kind of proves my point though. These teams are doing this intentionally. It didn't happen by accident. Though I would also only include Lville, Pitt, and maybe St. Mary's as 'big name' programs. Teams like Lville, Pitt and VaTech can get away with trash non-con schedules because they will play Top25 conference schedules, and get lots of chances for big wins at home. My distaste for the NCAA's rewarding of that philosophy is a topic for another discussion. Teams in the Valley can't do that, or they are eliminated from at-large consideration before the season begins. Personally, I think they should apply the same standard to the likes of Pitt (who always scheduled this way under Dixon, and was always rewarded for it). I don't have a problem with not having the toughest non-conference ever, as the ACC season really is brutal. But when you're intentionally trying to be in the bottom 10%, you need to not be rewarded for it.

I don't quite understand your comments about St. Mary's. Any team in the country would make the tourney if they won their conference tournament, so the non-con skeds are irrelevant.

[UEACES80]

Good work Mule!

Note from Wiki: As of the spring of 2012, Ken Pomeroy is also an instructor of atmospheric sciences at the University of Utah.

I guess he can tell us if it is going to rain or snow as well.

[mule]

Thanks. I checked out the KenPom site. Very good and reputable information. I saw where UE was ranked 313 for their non-com SOS. They were ranked ahead of the following big name programs that had 20 or more wins: Louisville (315), St. Mary's (325), Pittsburgh (332), Virginia Tech (336), Hawaii (342), and Houston (350 out 351). All the above schools made the NCAA or NIT field except for Lousiville (not eligible). UE was also ahead of another 6 teams (including SIU) with 20 or more wins that did not make either of these tournaments.
Intrigued, I discovered that Warren Nolan, CBS, and yes, the NCAA also rank team non-con SOS. The NCAA calls it the Nitty-Gritty Report, which all these other sites try to emulate.

I compared UE to St. Mary's seeing both of these teams would have made the NCAA tournament had they won their conference tournament. Here are the non-con SOS comparisons for these 3 sites.
WN-242/98
CBS-223/166
NCAA-229/95

Quite a disparity from the KenPom numbers of 313/325. I would tend to think that the NCAA used their own numbers to evaluate teams for the tournament.
Anyway, no hyperbole here. Just the facts.

I don't quite understand your comments about St. Mary's. Any team in the country would make the tourney if they won their conference tournament, so the non-con skeds are irrelevant.

My point exactly. The shot bounces differently at the end of the championship game and UE plays in the NCAA tournament. Non-con SOS would not matter and this discussion about Simmon's contract extension would not be 6 pages long.

[Cdizzle]

Thanks. I checked out the KenPom site. Very good and reputable information. I saw where UE was ranked 313 for their non-com SOS. They were ranked ahead of the following big name programs that had 20 or more wins: Louisville (315), St. Mary's (325), Pittsburgh (332), Virginia Tech (336), Hawaii (342), and Houston (350 out 351). All the above schools made the NCAA or NIT field except for Lousiville (not eligible). UE was also ahead of another 6 teams (including SIU) with 20 or more wins that did not make either of these tournaments.
Intrigued, I discovered that Warren Nolan, CBS, and yes, the NCAA also rank team non-con SOS. The NCAA calls it the Nitty-Gritty Report, which all these other sites try to emulate.

I compared UE to St. Mary's seeing both of these teams would have made the NCAA tournament had they won their conference tournament. Here are the non-con SOS comparisons for these 3 sites.
WN-242/98
CBS-223/166
NCAA-229/95

Quite a disparity from the KenPom numbers of 313/325. I would tend to think that the NCAA used their own numbers to evaluate teams for the tournament.
Anyway, no hyperbole here. Just the facts.

I don't quite understand your comments about St. Mary's. Any team in the country would make the tourney if they won their conference tournament, so the non-con skeds are irrelevant.

My point exactly. The shot bounces differently at the end of the championship game and UE plays in the NCAA tournament. Non-con SOS would not matter and this discussion about Simmon's contract extension would not be 6 pages long.

I disagree. If the hope is a once in a decade lucky run through the conference tournament, then the school isn't trying, and they are hurting the league. That isn't to say that winning the auto-bid isn't a good accomplishment, or a valid NCAA entry worthy of recognition. But if that method is the ONLY way a program expects to be capable of making the NCAA tournament, there is a problem. If the league desires to be 10 teams sitting around until the 1st weekend of March and then seeing who wins a 4-day tournament, then the league leadership needs changed. And if schools within the league have that as their plan, then the league membership needs to be changed.

Furthermore, even if one disagrees with the above, the fact is that shot did not bounce differently and Evansville did not make the tournament (or even the NIT in an indication of how far away they really were from relevance) and the university still did award the extension.

[UEACES80]

In no way was UE plan to get lucky in the MVC Tournament. I would be shocked if not every player and coach felt they could win the MVC tournament. The only team IMO that had proved to be a considerable amount better than UE was WSU and UE actually had played them tough at Wichita then had a stinker at home. I would think UE may have been more concerned about ISUr than UNI. Sure there is much respect for UNI but odds would have seemed to have favored UE winning one of three extremely tight games vs UNI. To lose all three tight games is not normal - if you want to argue that is the greatness of Jake fine.

Mule's point that I see is that the Non-Conf schedule can be used different ways. Some teams want to schedule to see what they have against stiff competition others may want to build confidence by winning games early. It isn't like UE played all cupcakes since Arkansas, UCI, and Providence are all worthy opponents. Belmont, Fresno and Murray are not pushovers in most seasons.

The cupcakes allow teams to work on their sets with different players and get youngsters some PT in case they are needed in key circumstances later in the season. Why so many SWAC teams I don't know. It might be expense related and not simply a desire to rack up wins.

Does anyone know how much road teams get paid? Is it a percentage of the ticket sales, a set amount to play a road game or hybrid of the two?

[Wufan]

In no way was UE plan to get lucky in the MVC Tournament. I would be shocked if not every player and coach felt they could win the MVC tournament. The only team IMO that had proved to be a considerable amount better than UE was WSU and UE actually had played them tough at Wichita then had a stinker at home. I would think UE may have been more concerned about ISUr than UNI. Sure there is much respect for UNI but odds would have seemed to have favored UE winning one of three extremely tight games vs UNI. To lose all three tight games is not normal - if you want to argue that is the greatness of Jake fine.

Mule's point that I see is that the Non-Conf schedule can be used different ways. Some teams want to schedule to see what they have against stiff competition others may want to build confidence by winning games early. It isn't like UE played all cupcakes since Arkansas, UCI, and Providence are all worthy opponents. Belmont, Fresno and Murray are not pushovers in most seasons.

The cupcakes allow teams to work on their sets with different players and get youngsters some PT in case they are needed in key circumstances later in the season. Why so many SWAC teams I don't know. It might be expense related and not simply a desire to rack up wins.

Does anyone know how much road teams get paid? Is it a percentage of the ticket sales, a set amount to play a road game or hybrid of the two?

But...he did not schedule well enough to be relevant in a year where the talent was there for contention. If every team in the MVC scheduled that way then we would be a one bid league every year. You see, by scheduling up to (or perhaps just beyond) your team's ceiling, then the whole league benefits. Higher RPIs from all teams leads to more opportunities for at-large selection. More teams in tourney equals more chances to win, equals more money, equals better programs, equals more wins, equals more money....