ESPN releases conference BPI rankings

[TheObserver]

A quick glance of this year's RPI makes it look like the Valley is closer to 19th than it is to 10th. Maybe this year is an extreme outlier but it certainly wouldn't be an extreme outlier if WSU were gone.

Thanks for bringing data and facts to the discussion. The Valley becoming the 16th best conference has a better chance of happening than being naive and dismissive and thinking the Valley would stay at 12 with minimal drop off if WSU left. Also, great post Asian.

[Wufan]

Wufan I literally did the math for you on removing Wichita. I guess you missed that post? Or you're ignoring it like Shocker fans do when facts make their positions looks silly.

You did it for this year, which is fine, but I was trying to show a four year history.

Asian is exactly right. The move to 16 is too much of a drop off for just removing Wichita. It doesn't work that way.

I literally said this. I guess you missed that post? Or you're ignoring it like Redbirds fans do when facts make their position look silly.

I posted the last part above because I was defending you, but you missed it. All I did was post facts that supported your position that the league won't fall to 16. Why are you trying to act like we are at odds on this?

[Redbirdgrad]

Wufan, my apologies if we are closer than I think we are. It sounded like you said the Valley is cyclical and top teams will come down as bottom teams come up meaning we couldn't recover from losing Wichita. I probably took that completely wrong.

I'd love to keep Wichita. We are stronger with them... In their current state. But I don't think we fall off the table when and if they leave.

[Wufan]

Wufan, my apologies if we are closer than I think we are. It sounded like you said the Valley is cyclical and top teams will come down as bottom teams come up meaning we couldn't recover from losing Wichita. I probably took that completely wrong.

I'd love to keep Wichita. We are stronger with them... In their current state. But I don't think we fall off the table when and if they leave.

Where we disagree is in the assumption that the league will automatically stay status quo by adding an average team. I think that's silly. The league will not be as good when a team like WSU leaves, and I think we agree on that? It's even more silly to say that the league would fall below a four year aveage of 13. 16 is beyond belief.

[Redbirdgrad]

Yeah I agree on all points. I'm also on the record saying a slip of 1 or maybe 2 spots. Most likely 1.

[All-MVC Fan]

Guys, bottom line here is that Wichita leaving would be bad for the MVC. Could the MVC recover? Yes, of course. Could the MVC recover in the short term? Highly unlikely, given the inability of Valley schools to either 1) spend what is necessary to have a nationally relevant program, or 2) make the right moves to elevate and get higher return on investment. Over the course of several years, maybe 6-10, the Valley could come back, but it would be several years of wandering in the desert should WSU bolt.

What should happen is fairly simple. The MVC should add a couple of high quality programs to add some meat to the conference schedule to the benefit whoever is good in a certain year. The rest of the MVC needs to step up their game and get serious about being in Division I basketball - invest the money in men's bball because as WSU has proven, a rising tide lifts all boats. And WSU needs to commit to the MVC, should those other two things happen.

With current MVC management, both at the conference level and at the school level, I don't think any serious moves will be made towards any of my plans. But I would rather see the MVC get better than to see it just accept losing schools whenever they figure it all out and get good. That, to me, seems like a tacit acceptance of mediocrity.

Let's keep who we have, get better, and go get a couple more outstanding programs. Make the MVC relevant again!

[TheObserver]

Yeah I agree on all points. I'm also on the record saying a slip of 1 or maybe 2 spots. Most likely 1.

There are no facts or data you have made that supports this. So therefore, just like you have done, I will just simply laugh it off and dismiss it. LOL WOW.

[Redbirdgrad]

Still haven't been able to comprehend the post with all of those things we call numbers huh?

I've shown you how we replace Wichita with a mediocre team and what the rest of the Valley has to do to compensate.

Then feel free to read the very bottom of that post. It puts me "on the record" for saying there would be a dip, but not that much. You see.... Those number thingys are what supports that statement. If you need someone to walk you through it... Feel free to ask your fellow shocker mates. They clearly grasp it.

[TheObserver]

Your number thingies are guesses and estimates based on a best-case scenario for your argument. They are in no way facts and just assumptions and hopes made on your part.

You don't even know what team would be added and you're going on the assumption that it would be somebody mediocre, which is hardly fact. You're also assuming what the Valley would have to do too. But hoping for and actual reality are two different things. Illinois State won't even be a Top 100 team next year. I'm not sure where else you see a crock load of improvement is coming from, other than wishful thinking on your part, which of course, is in no way fact. The only consistent thing about this conference is WSU and if they left, the Valley would have a void that would not be filled. They would drop and depending on the situation, would drop considerably in the rankings. It's something you don't want to hear because your team will always be stuck in this conference, but the truth, as we can tell by your thin-skinned responses to the subject, stings.

[Redbirdgrad]

He's back ladies and gentlemen! And still showing that blissful ignorance we all love! After the peptalk from ShockerGal on his board, he's summoned the strength to try more pot shots at ISU and the Valley. Let's see how he did... shall we???

Your number thingies are guesses and estimates based on a best-case scenario for your argument. They are in no way facts and just assumptions and hopes made on your part.

The number thingies are actual data from this year's RPI at this actual point in time. Those are, by definition... facts. Strike one!

You don't even know what team would be added and you're going on the assumption that it would be somebody mediocre, which is hardly fact.

Let's be honest, we all rolled our collective eyes when Loyola was added, but they've actually been a decent add and not swimming at the bottom of the conference weighing us down. I actually went lower than them on the RPI and took the median of all of college basketball, and using past history to project into the future, played conservatively here. Could we get someone worse than the median? Sure, we could. But I doubt the conference would go in that direction. To even begin this discussion you have to have a starting point of who would replace Wichita... I went conservative, and that still wasn't good enough for you. Can't help you here.

You're also assuming what the Valley would have to do too. But hoping for and actual reality are two different things.

Nope, this is where the math came in. I tried to keep it on a remedial level. Maybe Shockergal can help you with the basic subtraction. Holler at me if you two need a hand. What the Valley has to do is the exact difference between Wichita and the team we add. There is no assumption here. Strike two!

Illinois State won't even be a Top 100 team next year.

What bet would you like to put on this. I'm dead serious here. Name the bet. Birds 1-100 final RPI, I win. Birds 101+ you win. Knock yourself out. I've read your board, you guys don't even know who's coming back and who's eligible on our team. Uninformed and making projections. Love it.

I'm not sure where else you see a crock load of improvement is coming from, other than wishful thinking on your part, which of course, is in no way fact.

You're right, this is subjective. Ask around and most everyone will tell you the Valley is down this year. The 3-6 is weaker than usual. Northern Iowa is WAY weaker than usual. There's improvement to be had, and any argument to this point is pretty silly.

The only consistent thing about this conference is WSU and if they left, the Valley would have a void that would not be filled.

The only consistent thing about this conference is that the conference has survived subtraction before. You've had a VERY nice run that everyone would want to replicate. But you've also inhabited the very bottom of this conference as well. The conference is better with Wichita in it's current state. But it'll survive if you leave.

They would drop and depending on the situation, would drop considerably in the rankings.

Depending on the situation huh? So you're saying you aren't even sure, yet posting so adamantly that you are sticking to your guns on this 12 to 16 thing huh? Even when your own fans are telling you to back off the position because it's insane? Wow man. We're all shaking our heads at you right now.

It's something you don't want to hear because your team will always be stuck in this conference,

You do realize that our football team (that pigskin thing that you kick through uprights and try to score touchdowns with) has had a ton of success lately, is currently looking at getting out of FCS, and that would most likely require a conference move right? You do realize the world of conference affiliation doesn't begin and end with basketball... right? Tell me you're smarter than this... These discussions are getting more serious everyday for ISU. Strike three!

but the truth, as we can tell by your thin-skinned responses to the subject, stings.

[/quote]
You've walked into a gunfight with a knife and you're still talking smack huh? Very Championz-like. At every turn we've told you that your initial position was crazy talk, yet here you are again. It's ok to concede points and have conversations without having to win every point. In this case... you aren't winning any of them. Go back to the drawing board, get another peptalk from your girl, and we'll be here when you're ready to go again.