Another Expansion/Realignment Thread

[ReZyNeZy]

You’re clearly not from IL then. I spent a year at VU and I never felt like I was living in Chicagoland (which probably would go as Far East as Gary if I were being generous.) I had to take a bus to the Dunes to the South Shore Line which (that Far East) was mainly a line to get people to and from South Bend on Saturdays.

Evansville… pop 118,414…. Metro pop 358,676. Valpo pop… 34,151 Metro pop… what is a metro? Evansville is way more similar to a slightly smaller Bradley/Peoria market. Add in USI’s 7k student pop (which I assume there’s a decent amount that go to Evansville events like Holy Cross/ND and ISU/IWU) and it’s not even close. I always describe Valpo as if you’d dropped Morton or Pekin halfway between Bloomington and Chicago on I-55 with nothing else around. Evansville and Bradley (as well as several other Valley schools) benefit from being “community’s team” in a mid market. Valpo doesn’t have that. Even if it does, the resources of the community are diminished due to the vast population differences.

Like Loyola, I think Valley membership helps UIC to rise to being a worthy Valley member. I have never, and continue to see year over year, believed that Valpo was a good fit. Horizon was, and always will be, their home.

EDIT: Up until a few years ago Peoria got both WGN TV and KMOX radio. We still get Chicago and STL sports broadcasts on local stations. Are we part of an MSA of over 12 million people? That would put us second in the MSA list ahead of LA and behind only NYC. If true that’s pretty cool.

Alas I am not from Illinois, but I know the sentiment people from Illinois feel about Lake and Porter IN being considered Chicagoland. However sentiment does nothing to deny the fact that this area is still considered Chicago. NWI residents are unlike Naperville residents where we don't claim to be from Chicago direct, but we do claim to be in the Chicagoland Area. NWI residents will claim to be from "The Region" before ever claiming they are from Chicago. I agree with you in that Gary(and maybe down to Griffith) can claim to actually be Chicago as they are definitely more metropolitan than Valpo, Chesterton, Portage area.

[ReZyNeZy]

I understand everyone's sentiment about Valpo, I truly do. The school has been plagued with bad press after bad press, and the on court performance has been lackluster, but that doesn't deny they show similar success, since joining at least, than a school that is practically a "good timeline" version of the school itself. If we want to talk about the health of the university, I will gladly say that VU probably isn't sustainable for the valley, but since this is the basketball page of the forum. Id prefer to look strictly from an athletics POV than from an overall POV as this is not the platform to discuss those topics. You guys thought you were getting the VU of the early to mid 2010s, but you got Matt Lottich which already isnt a great look.

The Gym
The ARC sucks. We know the ARC sucks. At this point its a dead topic. However sentimental people feel about the gym, it sucks. No amount of renovations can make it not suck. It is a Great Value version of the Knapp Center. Considering the Knapp center itself looks like an avg high school gym in Indiana (Srry Drake fans) that says a lot about how much the ARC sucks. When local High Schools have larger (and nicer) gyms, you know you have a problem. This is the major difference between Valpo and Evansville. Evansville actually has a good standing within their community and was able to convince the city to build the Ford Center. Valpo on the other hand, kept kicking the rock down the road and now here we are with a 40 year old arena. Its being replaced soon so theres that going for it.

Fan support

Don't get me wrong, VU does have a ton of fans still, but Lottich effectively detterred them from attending games with the abysmal team compositions and sub standard recruitment tactics. That, coupled with item A, has allowed people to just say they'd rather listen to Todd Ickow then come to games in person. I assure you there will be more butts in seats with Powell. He actually knows how to build a Mid major basketball team given his work at Gonzaga and in the portal this off season.

All in all I understand your anger and frustration. I assure you Valpo fans are angry and frustrated with you. In all fairness both non VU fans and MVC fans got jipped in the transition. Quote me here if you must. You will not be disappointed with the 24-25 performance of the team.

[MissouriValleyUnite]

Knapp Center has chairbacks all around the lower bowl (except student section) and one sideline of the upper bowl.

The ARC has chairbacks on one sideline of the lower bowl - and it's the smaller side with 10-12 rows. The rest of the gym is bleachers.

Knapp Center looks far above an average high school gym in Indiana. I'm not sure I'd pick a single Indiana high school gym over the Knapp Center.

[TheDrake]

Knapp Center has chairbacks all around the lower bowl (except student section) and one sideline of the upper bowl.

The ARC has chairbacks on one sideline of the lower bowl - and it's the smaller side with 10-12 rows. The rest of the gym is bleachers.

The Knapp Center, in no way, looks like an average high school gym in Indiana. I'm not sure I'd pick a single Indiana high school gym over the Knapp Center.

I never pick on Valpo because they get enough criticism already and I understand how frustrating it is to support a school experiencing chronic basketball failure, but don't try to support the ARC by criticizing the Knapp Center. The ARC might be the Great Value version of the early 2000's Knapp Center but Brian Hardin has done a great job to make sure that it doesn't compare to today's. From chairback seating and video boards, to sound systems and bowling in the lower sections, it's a really solid place to take in a game. And Drake still has plans to rennovate the upper bowl as well as the atrium.

[MissouriValleyUnite]

Knapp Center has chairbacks all around the lower bowl (except student section) and one sideline of the upper bowl.

The ARC has chairbacks on one sideline of the lower bowl - and it's the smaller side with 10-12 rows. The rest of the gym is bleachers.

The Knapp Center, in no way, looks like an average high school gym in Indiana. I'm not sure I'd pick a single Indiana high school gym over the Knapp Center.

I never pick on Valpo because they get enough criticism already and I understand how frustrating it is to support a school experiencing chronic basketball failure, but don't try to support the ARC by criticizing the Knapp Center. The ARC might be the Great Value version of the early 2000's Knapp Center but Brian Hardin has done a great job to make sure that it doesn't compare to today's. From chairback seating and video boards, to sound systems and bowling in the lower sections, it's a really solid place to take in a game. And Drake still has plans to rennovate the upper bowl as well as the atrium.

Yep. The only adjustments I'd make to the Knapp Center are renovating the atrium and adding chairbacks to the other upper bowl sideline. Also remove the bleachers on the upper ends (those people can't see with everyone walking anyway) to clear room for pedestrian traffic.

I was really impressed with the Knapp Center when I went this season. I sat in the new lower corners with only a few rows and it felt spacious. They did a good job adding luxury seating at the bottom of those. I had to replace Jethro's with the Drake Diner for the postgame meal, but that was a cool retro restaurant.

[ReZyNeZy]

Knapp Center has chairbacks all around the lower bowl (except student section) and one sideline of the upper bowl.

The ARC has chairbacks on one sideline of the lower bowl - and it's the smaller side with 10-12 rows. The rest of the gym is bleachers.

Knapp Center looks far above an average high school gym in Indiana. I'm not sure I'd pick a single Indiana high school gym over the Knapp Center.

I was thinking along the lines of design and capacity. Chairbacks are a nice amenity. It is better than all Indiana HS gyms, but the design is very similar to a lot of Indiana HS gyms. (See any of the non Ralph Ligamen designed gyms in the largest Gyms in the word Wikipedia list. I would never support the ARC in any way. If it sounds like I intend to support the ARC, let it be known I do not. It should have been replaced 20 years ago. Sure it is historic, but who cares about history when it gets beat out by the local high Schools in terms of Capacity and niceness. If you were to talk to any Valpo fan, I assure you they all would probably say that the ARC is not a Mid Major level facility let alone an MVC level facility.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_high_school_gyms_in_the_United_States)

[E-Villan]

When local High Schools have larger (and nicer) gyms, you know you have a problem. This is the major difference between Valpo and Evansville. Evansville actually has a good standing within their community and was able to convince the city to build the Ford Center. Valpo on the other hand, kept kicking the rock down the road and now here we are with a 40 year old arena. Its being replaced soon so theres that going for it.

Actually, UE had little to do with getting the Ford Center. Roberts Stadium was perfectly fine for basketball. It actually held more, was closer to campus and was a basketball exclusive arena, with seating down to the floor. Unfortunately, the limited uses for it, as well as a botched renovation that dug the floor down to the water table, spelled its demise. Downtown interests, minor-league hockey and concert promoters where the forces behind the Ford Center. Don't get me wrong, it's a first-class facility and it has enabled us to attract tournaments such as the OVC and D-2 Elite Eight, but Roberts still had some life in it as a basketball arena.

You are correct that Evansville, Bradley and Drake, are smaller schools that have the ability to attract resources that Valpo as well as even some of our state schools in smaller markets don't have. In the era of NIL and constant transfers, we should be able to hold our own at this level. Unfortunately, none of us will be competing with P-5's.

UE has invested more in facilities across the board than several of the schools in this league. Practice facilities, weight rooms, etc as well as completely renovated baseball and softball fields. The baseball team has been competing at the top of the league for the last 3 years and we are hosting the MVC Tournament this year on campus. I think the biggest gripe people have about Valpo is supposedly there was promises to renovate/replace the ARC at the time they joined the league, and it appears to have been an empty one.

[ReZyNeZy]

When local High Schools have larger (and nicer) gyms, you know you have a problem. This is the major difference between Valpo and Evansville. Evansville actually has a good standing within their community and was able to convince the city to build the Ford Center. Valpo on the other hand, kept kicking the rock down the road and now here we are with a 40 year old arena. Its being replaced soon so theres that going for it.

Actually, UE had little to do with getting the Ford Center. Roberts Stadium was perfectly fine for basketball. It actually held more, was closer to campus and was a basketball exclusive arena, with seating down to the floor. Unfortunately, the limited uses for it, as well as a botched renovation that dug the floor down to the water table, spelled its demise. Downtown interests, minor-league hockey and concert promoters where the forces behind the Ford Center. Don't get me wrong, it's a first-class facility and it has enabled us to attract tournaments such as the OVC and D-2 Elite Eight, but Roberts still had some life in it as a basketball arena.

You are correct that Evansville, Bradley and Drake, are smaller schools that have the ability to attract resources that Valpo as well as even some of our state schools in smaller markets don't have. In the era of NIL and constant transfers, we should be able to hold our own at this level. Unfortunately, none of us will be competing with P-5's.

UE has invested more in facilities across the board than several of the schools in this league. Practice facilities, weight rooms, etc as well as completely renovated baseball and softball fields. The baseball team has been competing at the top of the league for the last 3 years and we are hosting the MVC Tournament this year on campus. I think the biggest gripe people have about Valpo is supposedly there was promises to renovate/replace the ARC at the time they joined the league, and it appears to have been an empty one.

Right on the money E-Villian. Evansville is basically the "good timeline" version of Valpo. I don't believe their promise was empty, asking around town has told me that they intended to "complete" the ARC. For a little history lesson, the ARC is an unfinished facility. It was built to be expanded (up to 10k if needed) and rumors I heard was the overhaul was being planned. The closure of the law school, covid, and tbe aquatic center debacle really closed off the pocketbooks from the city and gave VU a bad rep. This is only rumor, but I heard from someone who works in the athletic dept that there is a stipulation of Powells coaching contract that tbe school has to build him a new arena. Again that is only rumor, but it does sound like something Powell would do. His main goal is to turn VU into Gonzaga after all.

Roberts was a nice venue, before my time, but it is a stereotypical Ralph Ligamen gym. Trusses on the outside and a "sunken" gym. Indiana has a phase where this was all they would build. Looking at New Castle Fieldhouse, The Spartan Bowl in Connersville, and even the Carmel Fieldhouse are all old Ligamen gyms.

It seems multipurpose civic centers are going to be the way of the future for mid major schools. It just makes more sense. Why pay upkeep on a facility that only serves one purpose, when yoy can either partner with your local community to build something for year round use and split the costs

[TylerDurden]

I'm pretty certain any rumor that has Powell with a clause in his contract for a new facility is one that can be dismissed out of hand, as a matter of practicality. Neither he nor Valpo are now or were then in a position to ask for or include such a thing.

As consideration for such a contract clause, what is the compensation for not building one?
On what timeline would Valpo be required to build a new arena? His deal is only for five years with his pay toward the bottom of the league, yes?

There's no competent administrator who would have included a new arena in his contract.

It defies credulity.

[ReZyNeZy]

I'm pretty certain any rumor that has Powell with a clause in his contract for a new facility is one that can be dismissed out of hand, as a matter of practicality. Neither he nor Valpo are now or were then in a position to ask for or include such a thing.

As consideration for such a contract clause, what is the compensation for not building one?
On what timeline would Valpo be required to build a new arena? His deal is only for five years with his pay toward the bottom of the league, yes?

There's no competent administrator who would have included a new arena in his contract.

It defies credulity.

From what I heard, if there isn't a rendering and/or plan for construction in 3 years, he is allowed to walk away and VU and still have 2 more years on the payroll. I agree that it is absurd, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it is true. Again, this is just a rumor I heard from someone I know within the athletic department, but VU isn't stranger to making "questionable" decisions. Just go onto the News Thread on the fan forum and there is a lot of debate surrounding department closures and professor tenure being revoked. In my personal opinion, its about 50/50.

There is a plan in place to build a new facility. The feasibility study has been completed, and a plot was picked. The arena would follow the new nursing building in construction. The Nursing building is going on the intersection of US 30 and Sturdy Rd. The first floor is going to be an active medical center taking in patients. The arena itself is going to sit north of Brown Field with the football plot being "flipped" for a lack of better term. The new home stand is supposed to butt up against the new arena with the press box servicing both the football and basketball floors to save costs. As for capacity and amenities, that will have to wait until renderings are released. If the current timeline holds, they want to be breaking ground on the arena within 3-5 years with a 1 year total construction.

As for the here and now, if the timeline holds, by the end of the year they have their fundraising plan for the nursing building in addition to the athletic arena in place and just need to release it