MVC targeting Valpo & Murray State to create 11 team league

[Dean Wormer]

Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.

You add Valpo or Murray because their basketball programs are better than the bigger market schools on the table. To add UWM, UMKC, UNO, or UIC to tap into the bigger market over schools like Valpo or Murray State would be watering down the league and creating a lower quality product. Loyola has surpassed my expectations basketball-wise since they've been a member, but the value of big markets to the rest of the league is questionable when there isn't much fan support. Has enrollment in Valley schools increased from Chicago-area kids since Loyola has been a member? I'd like to know that answer but I'd be surprised if it's significant.

Ptown pretty well hits the nail on this one. To say we shouldn't add Murray or Valpo because of population of the city is silly at this point. One, the population of Porter County, IN is over 160,000. If you have ever been up there, you would know it is pretty much one town blending into another. Just taking Porter and Lake Counties, and you have over 700,000 people. Leave out anything on the Illinois side and you still have a very sizeable market. If you are saying Murray can't be anything due to being in a smaller town, you might as well toss out SIU and UNI then. Of the current members, UNI has done the most for the league this decade and SIU did it for the previous one.

I get your point somewhat. The ceiling isn't as high at a UNI as it is for some of the other Valley schools. Bradley, MOST, ISUr and even Evansville could have higher ceilings with similar type results. Fan base, facilities, markets, etc. but that certainly doesn't diminish what UNI has brought to the table, and if Murray can pull off something similar, we are all better off for it. While they could never bring in large crowds in their current facility, I think Loyola could quickly become the darlings of Chicagoland with a few NCAA runs. I remember how they embraced DePaul in the 70's, and they have been awful ever since.

The problem I have with the larger city schools you propose, is that nobody cares. UN-O message board has hockey as the primary forum, with men's basketball grouped into "other sports, and Belmont doesn't even have a board. While it seems silly to base school additions on a fan board, it does give a good indication of the level of fan interest. You argue Murray has done well being in a weaker league, well the same argument is made for Belmont, except Murray has fans. I go to Nashville quite a bit for work, trust me, no one there, from the media to the general population gives a rats rear...and that is with the success they have had. Can you imagine what it would be like after about 6 years of mid pack at best finishes in the Valley? Bradley, UE, ISU have had recent down periods, but they still put butts in the seats. Belmont can't touch anyone in the league in attendance WITH NCAA teams. Same for UM-KC except they are horrible on the court as well.

Currently, Valpo and Murray are solid basketball adds, and clearly the best two options available. In agreement with most everyone else, let's add them for now, and see if a UW-M or UIC can put things together for a 12th add later.

[VUFWAlum]

Not sure I understand the appeal of adding Valpo and Murray State to the MVC. Both are good BB schools, but no ways near the status of WSU or Creighton. Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile. The MO State President said he voted to invite Loyola because Chicago was a big market that enhanced MOST' name recognition and the potential for increased enrollments from C area students--two clearly defined university president voting reasons. But, I doubt that Valparaiso, IN (pop: 32,000+) or Murray. KY (pop: !8,000) is going to enhance any schools brand or generate MOST enrollments.
If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.

My user name should make my bias blatantly obvious so when I say there are misconceptions concerning Valpo you can take it however your particular leanings take you. I know that when most people, who know nothing about Northeast Indiana, think of Valparaiso they think of Orville Redenbacher, popcorn and cornfields. While there is some truth to that perception you would, as Dean Wormer stated in a previous post, be incorrectly discounting a population within a 25 mile radius that tops 750,000. That is larger than a similar radius of South Bend or Fort Wayne and while those "markets" are perhaps more recognizable the Valparaiso area certainly holds its own in sheer population. There are questions about Valpo's ability to sustain success or that we have "topped out" this is as it should be for almost every mid-major program. Any team can falter, as witnessed by many in the MVC and HL, but I think the evidence suggests that VU can at least for the short run contribute to the success of the MVC. Over the next several years we will be putting on the floor the highest ranked recruits in VU history (and we all know how accurate the recruiting gurus are at predicting a recruits success ). A 16 year average of our KenPom rating shows we would have been in the top half sans WSU of the MVC and our 7 year average puts us by a fairly significant margin at #2 behind UNI. Yes, there could and should be growing pains. Yes, Alec Peters is gone, but before him was Ryan Broekhoff and be for him Brandon Woods and... you get the point, we have done pretty well at developing players. Yes, there are no more Drews on the bench, but if you read the bio of our young coach Matt Lottich and look at the adversity he faced this past year I think you will be impressed. Our athletic facilities are not up to the standards of many in the MVC and need to be addressed we know that, but I think the game atmosphere will do nicely thank you. We are not Wichita State, no one team could fill those large shoes unless you poach Gonzaga (have fun with that trip) or Butler (whom we beat the last 4 times we have played). What you will get is a basketball-centric athletic department from a private school with excellent academics. With the help of another similar school perhaps the MVC can once again achieve that multi-bid status.

[TheAsianSensation]

There is a side to markets that do matter. You increase exposure of the MVC to additional populations...not because of basketball, but because of enrollment. If you can get more teenagers outside your city/town/state to enroll in your college, that's good for you.

And that might be part of Loyola's add. The president of, say, Evansville isn't thinking about the new basketball fans in Chicago the MVC might get. They're thinking about the new prospective students they can get from Chicago who might now tangentially hear of that university.

Just look at what happened to student enrollments at George Mason, VCU, Wichita, etc., after their tourney wins. Obviously the situation is different from a realignment perspective, but the more exposure you can get in an area, the more likely you'll find a few students willing to fork over a few ten thousand dollars in tuition.

However, there's a difference between Chicago and Milwaukee, Omaha, and even Detroit. The MVC is pretty aware of how having a team in Omaha and Nebraska can impact student enrollment. Chicago has a much larger student population than Milwaukee or Detroit.

At this point, television exposure is pretty much trivial. We've got our weekly ESPN game just about, and a few other games; we're not getting more based on who we add.

[rlh04d]

Simply put, two topped out mid majors from the #17 HL and #19 OVC--not the teams or towns that are going to raise the MVC schools or BB profile.

If the intent is the same now as it was 5 years ago when Loyola was added then the MVC needs to push to add schools in big market cities: U. Wisconsin Milwaukee, U. MO Kansas City, U. Nebraska Omaha, and if still a possibility Belmont in big market Nashville. Wisconsin Green Bay may also be a possible add but they are small, 6,000 enrollment--but a better 2017 RPI and record than Wisc Milwaukee.

You seem to be dismissing both teams because of the conferences they're in (#17 HL and #19 OVC), yet if you replace Wichita State with Milwaukee, Kansas City, and Omaha the way you're suggesting, Valley conference RPI likely falls to #16 or even #17, behind the HL, unless there's a significant upward progress in the next few years.

A simplistic replacement of WSU's RPI with those three drops the conference to just barely ahead of the HL at #16.

[TheAsianSensation]

By the way, what exactly are the terms of our ESPN deal?

I think there's about 8 years left on the overall deal (with a lot of ESPN3 coverage), and part of that has been about 15-20 ESPN/2/U games a year. But that contract was written with Wichita in mind, who gobbled up most of those appearances. Is there an out clause in that contract, or some wiggle room? I'm not sure ESPN would be thrilled with 15 non-Wichita games they'd be obligated to show.

[RacerJoeD]

TL;DR

Let us play "Reducto Ad Absurdum"

I would bet that if market size is the most important factor in MVC expansion, let's forget the small potatoes and look at big markets.

St Francis
LIU Brooklyn
Loyola Md
IUPUI
Coppin State
UMBC
St Peters
Portland State
Chicago State

I mean, these should be your targets.

In order here are their market sizes

1
1
26
25
26
7
1
22
3

Those are major markets. Compared to Omaha (76), Kansas City (31), Milwaukee (35), those are huge markets. Alas there is a very small problem.

Here are the average attendances for these teams in order.

487
1163
753
1055
950
970
479
662
1091

But I'm sure they will grow into their place in the MVC.

[Dawgbit]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8OeZ7S8x3Y

https://youtu.be/0FQj9u8-kOY

[PantherU]

Markets absolutely matter for the MVC. But not for television. Adding a school based on its television market it foolhardy, because none of the schools that are in the big television markets bring an audience that watches the teams on TV except maybe once or twice a year - for instance, we had a pretty sizable Milwaukee audience for the 2014 HLT title game. That doesn't mean our TV market should be a reason to add us.

What does matter, however, is the recruiting market. Adding Loyola did not bring a bunch of TV viewers to help negotiate the next TV contract. Loyola did bring MVC teams the opportunity to tell Chicago-based recruits that their families will be able to see them play at least once a year without leaving town. This is why UMKC was in the discussion, however brief they may have been in it. Kansas City is a recruiting area that the MVC figures to lose a bit of a hold on without Wichita State. That may not result in any recruits lost next year. Conservatively let's say it's just one or two recruits collectively over five years. UMKC drops off for many other reasons.

Milwaukee? We've got a fertile recruiting ground as well, with a lot of recruits from high-majors in D-I to NAIA D-II level players. Mid-majors have been carried by players from this town. And MVC schools have never had a strong hold on the city. The list of Greater Milwaukee kids going to MVC schools isn't exactly long...Steve McWhorter, Reed Timmer, Juwan McCloud, Chip Rank, D'Angalo Jackson. If I'm missing any please feel free to add them. Dozens of high school players from Greater Milwaukee will play all over mid-majors, high-majors, low-majors in the next several years. Adding Milwaukee to the conference gets MVC schools an in-road into this fertile recrutiing ground.

That's how market comes into play. TV shouldn't come into play.

One more thing: Milwaukee and Valparaiso are both short drives from Chicago. So coaches can use that with recruits as well. This is obviously true for UIC, and they're probably going to be closer to more recruits than Loyola. I wanted to say that just so Big D doesn't think I'm laying "bait" hahaha!

Obviously none of this is going to be the reason a kid commits. But each and every small advantage is worth it, and being able to play in front of family and friends is important to a lot of kids.

Milwaukee Fun Fact: Panther Arena, which was built as Milwaukee Arena in 1950, was the first basketball arena to be built to accommodate television production.

[Dawgbit]

Some poster on here was curious as to my "vendetta" with Murray State. Let me help you out.

SIU quit playing Murray State in football about 10 years or so, based upon a decision by our A.D. after a game at Murray, where their players were absolute thugs. SIU had a running get a broken leg in that game. The Murray players were taunting SIU with "we f****d up your running back, great sportsmanship. Our AD at the time, who is now the AD at Colorado State said "enough". Their basketball program used to be coached by that snotty-nosed Mick Cronin, who routinely looked for cast-off thugs transfers (google Keith Jennifer) from other programs. Cronin is now at Cincinnati, speaks volumes. I have a friend who went to Murray on an athletic scholarship who had a run in with Mr Jennifer, who I have reason to believe may be in prison as we speak, so the way Murray runs their programs does not sit well with me. And there is no benefit to Wichita State leaving the MVC, you can try to pretty it up if you want. Instead of the league playing down to Murray and Valpo we should be striving to playing up to the likes of Wichita State, Creighton, and other members like SIU, Northern Iowa who have fielded very good teams that DEMONSTRATED POST SEASON SUCCESS.

Its nice you bring up things that allegedly happened over a decade ago. Murray runs a clean program, we graduate student athletes and the university does not condone or cover up and erratic behavior. Mr. Jenifer that you speak of did get arrested while here and was subsequently suspended. It was for possession of marijuana. Im sure no SIU players over the last decade has smoked pot. Guess you got one on us there. My inclination is that you just don't want to get beat by the Racers and don't want the healthy competition.

That's fine. Go ahead add UMKC and Omaha and see how fast your overall conference rpi drops. If you want multi bids and healthy competition the Racers are the obvious choice.

Not my fight but I think its funny that a Murray St fan wants to talk about lowering the MVC RPI when you were 230 last year and 170 the prior year? In fact, if you look at Murray St over the past 5 years...

2016-17 230
2015-16 170
2014-15 64
2013-14 144
2012-13 113

Really not anything to write home about in there. The 64 is ok but followed by the 170 and 230? Not a good trend.

How dare you spoil a good story with facts! Murray fans live in a very small universe, you must temember that! Another question, if they have been such a kick A program, for sooo long, why did lowly SIU get the MVC invite back from n 1975, and not Murray ? BTW, SIU beat Arizona two years later to advance to their first Sweet 16, which seems to have Murray throughout their "rich tradition ".

[Dawgbit]

Some poster on here was curious as to my "vendetta" with Murray State. Let me help you out.

SIU quit playing Murray State in football about 10 years or so, based upon a decision by our A.D. after a game at Murray, where their players were absolute thugs. SIU had a running get a broken leg in that game. The Murray players were taunting SIU with "we f****d up your running back, great sportsmanship. Our AD at the time, who is now the AD at Colorado State said "enough". Their basketball program used to be coached by that snotty-nosed Mick Cronin, who routinely looked for cast-off thugs transfers (google Keith Jennifer) from other programs. Cronin is now at Cincinnati, speaks volumes. I have a friend who went to Murray on an athletic scholarship who had a run in with Mr Jennifer, who I have reason to believe may be in prison as we speak, so the way Murray runs their programs does not sit well with me. And there is no benefit to Wichita State leaving the MVC, you can try to pretty it up if you want. Instead of the league playing down to Murray and Valpo we should be striving to playing up to the likes of Wichita State, Creighton, and other members like SIU, Northern Iowa who have fielded very good teams that DEMONSTRATED POST SEASON SUCCESS.

Its nice you bring up things that allegedly happened over a decade ago. Murray runs a clean program, we graduate student athletes and the university does not condone or cover up and erratic behavior. Mr. Jenifer that you speak of did get arrested while here and was subsequently suspended. It was for possession of marijuana. Im sure no SIU players over the last decade has smoked pot. Guess you got one on us there. My inclination is that you just don't want to get beat by the Racers and don't want the healthy competition.

That's fine. Go ahead add UMKC and Omaha and see how fast your overall conference rpi drops. If you want multi bids and healthy competition the Racers are the obvious choice.

Keith Jennifer was shown the door at VA for assaulting a couple who were out for a stroll. 5 years for possession? Haha. http://www.yardbarker.com/mobile/conten ... 9_14191655